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CSS Frameworks == Marmite

Matthew Pennell

November 19, 2007 at 12:53 AM

When we come to look back at 2007, we might not be surprised to find that many of the hornets’ nest discussions were stirred up by the grandmaster of the provocative blog post, Jeff Croft. His latest essay, What’s not to love about CSS Frameworks?, has spurred some of the top names in the community to comment on their love or distrust of the nascent CSS framework industry.

(And if Jeff can make pointed jibes at we British in his post, I reserve the right to use a post title that only the British will understand.) ;)


Mr. Bovril

November 18, 2007 at 2:08 PM

CSS Frameworks == Marmite
...Add to Delicious”

Oh, the irony!

Jeff Croft

November 18, 2007 at 2:31 PM

CSS frameworks are an earthenware cooking container? You’re right, us Americans don’t get it. :)

Thanks for the link, man. I think I’d feel a lot better about being called “the grandmaster of the provocative blog post” if I were actively trying to be controversial. Since I’m not, it feels a little weird. I’m starting to think I just incite rage in people. It’s not a great feeling.

Oh well. Such is the nature of passionate people, I guess.


November 18, 2007 at 4:06 PM

I just don’t get it personally….this blog post disappointed me a bit because in it I saw two great designers argue what is essentially an opinion. WHat Mr Croft seems to be saying is there is no sensible reason why someone shouldn’t use a framework. He asked for opinions and when he got them spent the time picking apart those opinions. I thought collison gave a sound none aggresive take on it and I saw a reply from Jeff which basically criticised it seemed the fact that he felt colly is a contradiction when he uses ee so much etc.

As a fellow limey I haven’t either jumped into blueprint. I am not turned off on the idea however like with rails when it comes to working day in day out I would rather get in and code it up how I know than learn how to use other systems. Maybe I should spend the time to have a good luck and pick it up and see if it decreases my development time.

It was certainly an interesting post I just think its a shame some of the comments section reminds me of the forums for computer gamers who argue and make it personal than have a sensible discussion.

Jeff Croft

November 18, 2007 at 6:30 PM

Ray, I’m sorry it came off that way. I have a ton of respect for Simon Collison — I don’t know him really well, but I definitely do consider him to be a friend, of sorts. There was definitely no ill-will intended in my comments towards him — just friendly, well-intentioned industry debate. Nothing personal, at all. I’ve talked to Simon since those comments, and I know he didn’t take them that way. I’m sorry it wasn’t more clear to everyone else that I wasn’t trying to attack him personally.

Matthew Pennell

November 18, 2007 at 11:49 PM

@Jeff: has the answers! ;)

FWIW, I’ve tried both YUI and Blueprint; I found YUI Grids impossible to work with and far too restrictive, but I loved Blueprint and will probably be using it in future projects. Whether I’ll go the extra mile and convert the layout-style class name attributes into semantic IDs remains to be seen — probably not, for personal projects anyway.

Arik Jones

November 19, 2007 at 10:15 AM

CSS Frameworks are necessary in deadline intensive environments where you gotta put out mockups as fast as you can say, “yes, I can do that…”. Its always funny to read replies of those people who are against something just to be against and where in some cases they’ve never even given it a chance.

I bashed rails and felt php to be god of web programming before absolutely falling in love it and I think the same routine happens with anything new (except the advent of Web 2, what a flop!)

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